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Guacamole, Tuna Salad and Baby Cereal: Principles, Criteria and Practical Scenarios of Lisha | Hilchos Shabbas #6

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Nov 8, 2021
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1 hr 1 min 32 sec
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      1. Title: Lishah Questions
        Author: Avraham Yale ,

        Shalom, Rabbi Cohen.Thank you for these wonderful shiurim. I am learning hilkhot shabat b'iyun and your shiurim are an enormous help putting some of the messier topics in a systematic framework. I have three questions about your recent lishah shiur. Though I’m sure you must be very busy certainly understand if you don’t have time to reply, or don’t have time to reply for some time.1. We understand Rabbi Yosi as holding that the main part of lishah is the gibul. Yet the standard shinui of reversing the order seems to focus on the netinat hamayim stage. How does that help according to Rabbi Yosi? Shouldn’t we require a shinui in the gibul? (Perhaps this could be explained with your shinui/heker distinction if we say this “shinui” is only available for what would otherwise be d’rabanan).2. B’mchilah rabah, I think read the Rambam slightly differently from you. I’d be curious to know your thoughts. I think the Rambam is saying that (1) a blilah avah of a bar gibul is completely asur and there is nothing you can do about it. (2) The keli and shittah are not bar gibul and therefore mixing them in a blilah avah is only d’rabanan, and this specific d’rabanan can be done with a shinui. (3) What’s the shinui? Either (a) small quantities or (b) reverse the order. (4) Keli is a special case: because it is so similar to flour, Chazal were machmir that reversing the order doesn’t help; it needs to be m’at m’at. Finally (5) For a blilah rakah, no shinui is required even in large quantities. (I guess he holds blilah rakah isn’t even asur d’rabanan, at least for lav bar gibul, perhaps because it’s two steps removed from d’oraita). I think these are all consistent with the Beit Yosef, Arukh HaShulchan, and Mishnah Berurah. Note that in this pshat the Rambam has both a chumra and a kulah over the Rif, Rosh, Tur etc. On the one hand, he’s machmir that there is no heter for a blilah avah with bar gibul. On the other hand, he’s meikil that reversing the order helps for a blilah avah and that no shinui is needed for blilah rakhah. I realize the Rema contradicts point 5 when he says “afilu b’rakh,” but he might just be saying we should be machmir like the Tur et al. and not explaining the Rambam. 3. It seems the Rambam (and therefore Maran) make a difference between bar gibul and lav bar gibul. What do you think they would hold about a blilah rakah with a bar gibul (i.e., can you make a thin batter of flour and water)? On the one hand, the blilah rakah is a d’rabanan just like the blilah avah of the lav bar gibul, so maybe it’s mutar, especially if you make a shinui. But on the other hand, the Rambam didn’t even allow m’at m’at for a bar gibul, so maybe anything with bar gibul is too close to d’oraita and it’s just asur.Thank you again for the great shiurim and thank you in advance for any thoughts you have on these questions.Kol tuv,Avraham Yale

      2. Title: Lishah Questions
        Author: Avraham Yale ,

        Shalom, Rabbi Cohen.Thank you for these wonderful shiurim. I am learning hilkhot shabat b'iyun and your shiurim are an enormous help putting some of the messier topics in a systematic framework. I have three questions about your recent lishah shiur. Though I’m sure you must be very busy certainly understand if you don’t have time to reply, or don’t have time to reply for some time.1. We understand Rabbi Yosi as holding that the main part of lishah is the gibul. Yet the standard shinui of reversing the order seems to focus on the netinat hamayim stage. How does that help according to Rabbi Yosi? Shouldn’t we require a shinui in the gibul? (Perhaps this could be explained with your shinui/heker distinction if we say this “shinui” is only available for what would otherwise be d’rabanan).2. B’mchilah rabah, I think read the Rambam slightly differently from you. I’d be curious to know your thoughts. I think the Rambam is saying that (1) a blilah avah of a bar gibul is completely asur and there is nothing you can do about it. (2) The keli and shittah are not bar gibul and therefore mixing them in a blilah avah is only d’rabanan, and this specific d’rabanan can be done with a shinui. (3) What’s the shinui? Either (a) small quantities or (b) reverse the order. (4) Keli is a special case: because it is so similar to flour, Chazal were machmir that reversing the order doesn’t help; it needs to be m’at m’at. Finally (5) For a blilah rakah, no shinui is required even in large quantities. (I guess he holds blilah rakah isn’t even asur d’rabanan, at least for lav bar gibul, perhaps because it’s two steps removed from d’oraita). I think these are all consistent with the Beit Yosef, Arukh HaShulchan, and Mishnah Berurah. Note that in this pshat the Rambam has both a chumra and a kulah over the Rif, Rosh, Tur etc. On the one hand, he’s machmir that there is no heter for a blilah avah with bar gibul. On the other hand, he’s meikil that reversing the order helps for a blilah avah and that no shinui is needed for blilah rakhah. I realize the Rema contradicts point 5 when he says “afilu b’rakh,” but he might just be saying we should be machmir like the Tur et al. and not explaining the Rambam. 3. It seems the Rambam (and therefore Maran) make a difference between bar gibul and lav bar gibul. What do you think they would hold about a blilah rakah with a bar gibul (i.e., can you make a thin batter of flour and water)? On the one hand, the blilah rakah is a d’rabanan just like the blilah avah of the lav bar gibul, so maybe it’s mutar, especially if you make a shinui. But on the other hand, the Rambam didn’t even allow m’at m’at for a bar gibul, so maybe anything with bar gibul is too close to d’oraita and it’s just asur.Thank you again for the great shiurim and thank you in advance for any thoughts you have on these questions.Kol tuv,Avraham Yale

      Learning on the Marcos and Adina Katz YUTorah site is sponsored today by Ruth Peyser Kestenbaum and Miriam & Alan Goldberg to mark the ninth yahrtzeit of their father, Irwin Peyser, Harav Yisroel Chaim ben R' Dovid V' Fraidah Raizel Peyser